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Talk:Druid 8/ monk 4/ shifter 28
Saves and race Save tally conspicuously missing. Elf race is apparently mandatory. Why and why? -- 02:17, November 27, 2009 (UTC) * The save tally is missing because no one added it. Would you like to? (While you're at it, most of the builds are lacking a save tally, so maybe those could be updated also?) The elf race for this build is presumably to make it easier to meet circle kick's dexterity pre-requisite. (While halflings also get a dexterity bonus, their penalty to strength would hamper qualifying for great cleave.) --The Krit 02:18, November 28, 2009 (UTC) * Actually, I tried to make this build with a human. Used lower INT due tohuman skill point bonus, and a DEX of 14, increasing it to 15 at level 4. The only difference I saw is that the last great wisdom is at level 39 and dragon shape 40,but unlike elf version, a human doesn't have a multiclass Xp penalty. Also, not so vulnerable before shifting. 17:53, July 20, 2011 (UTC) Hit points Was this intended to be PvM or PvP? (I'd add this info if I could figure out the build plan.) Although shifted forms may override some the inherent weaknesses of low CON, this build will still have a seriously low max base HP problem, 120HP at Level 20, 240HP at Level 40, a level more suited for a high stealth or elite caster build. Without Toughess or Great CON stuck in there somewhere to supplement base HP this could be an easy kill against high AB attackers even with the shifted HP boost. --Iconclast 04:16, November 28, 2009 (UTC) * *Shrug* Low constitution is typical of shifter builds, so that much is par for the course. You're free to disagree with that choice. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that this build should never be caught in combat with 240 HP at level 40. Instead, the PC would shift into dragon form, raising its constitution to 32, which gives another 520 hit points (before factoring in the temporary hit points). So even allowing for average hit points (instead of max), that's 686 base hit points while fighting, plus an extra 100 temporary hit points at the start of combat. --The Krit 16:14, November 28, 2009 (UTC) Feat selections I don't know why you take Circle Kick, Great Cleave, Mobility and Spring attack... Circle Kick keeps switching your opponent (which is annoying as hell), Mobility and Spring attack are negated by 20 Tumble, and Great Cleave is useless in my opinion (unless you want to take the critical feats)... if you are strong enough to 1 shot your enemies, then it doesn't really matter if they go down in 1 round or not (remember you still have cleave anyway so if you ARE strong enough then you will be killing 2 enemies each round). The build would benefit greatly from working in a skill sink monk level close to 40 to max out tumble and discipline and you can use those extra feats to take things like Epic Fort, Epic Reflex, Toughness and Epic Skill Focus Discipline (work a monk level in on 20 to max disc). In fact, if you sacrifice 1 AB to take 10 shifter levels pre epic you could go for 6/6/28 druid/monk/shifter with 2 monk levels in epics (probably 1 at 30 and 1 at 40) and get yourself a ton more disc and 4 more tumble AC. You would also pick up improved knockdown for free, which is amazing for a dragon. 05:50, April 14, 2010 (UTC) * Mobility is not negated by 20 tumble, as mobility applies to all attacks of opportunity, not just those generated by moving in combat. Also, great cleave's advantage over cleave does not require being able to 1-shot your enemies; it is enough to be able to kill two enemies in a single round to reap the benefits of great cleave. (As for the rest, it may be accurate, but it might also be describing a completely different build. I'll leave that for others to debate.) --The Krit 22:36, May 6, 2010 (UTC) AB Dragon shape doesn't have weapon focus nor epic weapon focus that work. Also there no note about the size modifier, such dragon have -2 AB, -1 for slaad etc. --ILKAY 04:12, April 17, 2010 (UTC) * Size modifiers added to both AB and AC. However, when doing some spot checks, I noticed some oddities I could not account for. Why is the illithid AB at -1? Why does the iron golem form have +2AC compared to the other construct forms? Are these wrong or am I overlooking something? --The Krit 18:33, May 8, 2010 (UTC) :* Iron golem was wrong (polymorph gives +15 dodge, instead of +13 (what the other forms get)). I'll be looking into mindflayer but I wouldn't be surprised if there was an error there too. ::Not seeing any error with mindflayer, it has a medium size and a +2 bonus from its creature weapons. WhiZard 20:05, May 8, 2010 (UTC) It looks like the AB adjustments for "unarmed" (that is, creature-weapon-using) shifted forms are adding in the weapon focus bonus for unarmed strike. For example, the AB listed is 30 + 9 = 39 for an iron golem. But, that initial 30 includes +3 for the unarmed strike focus feats which don't benefit creature weapons, so it should be 27 + 9 = 36. Maybe I am overlooking something, but I think the same issue with AB calculation applies to other creature-weapon-using forms as well. - MrZork (talk) 03:56, December 17, 2012 (UTC) * BTW, I suspect that those unarmed strike weapon focus feats might not have been chosen had the build author known that they would not benefit shifted forms which use creature weapons. The build isn't particularly geared toward unarmed combat in unshifted form... - MrZork (talk) 04:04, December 17, 2012 (UTC) :* You are probably right. It's obvious this is a build on paper only since most all of these nuances and assumptions would have been cleared up during combat debugging. --Iconclast (talk) 00:27, December 18, 2012 (UTC) Suggestions by 85.115.54.180 I would get monk at lvl 40 so I can max my tumble, and something else other than animal empathy maybe spend it maximising other skills! -- 14:41, 8 January 2013‎ * You could do that. Just keep in mind that a monk level in the epics would mean either reducing AB by 1 or giving up an epic bonus feat. (Possibly a good trade-off for +4 AC.) Also keep in mind that if your goal is tumble, then ranks over 40 are wasted, so level 37 for monk works just as well as level 40. --The Krit (talk) 19:49, January 13, 2013 (UTC) Opening paragraph The opening paragraph has a few possible issues. Among them, the phrase "designed to massively abuse the use of a single monk level" reflects a value judgement about the build strategy. IMO, it would be more appropriate for a wiki article to simply note that the build benefits from the monk's unarmed attack progression and leave any non-technical evaluation of the appropriateness of that class' use to the reader. In addition, the build uses more than a single monk level, so the "single monk level" characterization is somewhat misleading. Interestingly, the opinion-heavy description doesn't mention the +11 AC (potentially +17 buffed) from wisdom that the monk levels enable. Also, as noted elsewhere in the talk page, the unarmed weapon focus feats do not increase AB for creature weapon attacks. Because of that, the implication that this build is specialized for those forms which use creature weapon attacks is somewhat undermined. I mean, yes, one might say that the build's most effective attack is a creature weapon attack. But, arguably, that is primarily because of the features of those forms (e.g. high strength of the dragon forms), something which would be true even without the four feats specific to unarmed attacks. (BTW, I realize the opening paragraph was constructed largely of what were previously notes at the ends of earlier versions of the article.) There is a temptation to revise the opening paragraph to address these considerations and possibly to add a note in the article that the unarmed weapon focus feats do not benefit "unarmed" shapes. Especially since the latter would best accompany a re-working the whole AB section, there is also a temptation to simply post another build with this class mix to give readers a different example. I am not sure which would be more useful for the wiki. Possibly both. - MrZork (talk) 19:37, May 18, 2014 (UTC) *I made a first pass at modifying that opening paragraph. - MrZork (talk) 19:56, May 18, 2014 (UTC) * I think "single monk level" was a reference to what was needed and how the build was initially conceived, not so much to what this build ends up having. Then again, having 4 monk levels does ratchet down the abuse, probably bellow "massively". :) Anyway, it does look better. I just didn't feel like doing content editing when I gave the build articles a consistent formatting. --The Krit (talk) 19:29, June 14, 2014 (UTC)